Flying High With Electric Power! The Ampeer ON-LINE! August 1999 The Club Newsletter of the Electric Flyers Only, Inc AMA Charter 2354 Walled Lake, MI, USA Editor: Ken Myers Fly the Future - Fly Electric!

What's On This Site:
Site Table of Contents

President:	Vice-President:	Secretary/Treasurer:
Ken Myers	Richard Utkan	Debbie McNeely
1911 Bradshaw Ct.	240 Cabinet	4733 Crows Nest Ct.
Walled Lake, MI 48390	Milford, MI 48381	Brighton, MI 48116
(248) 669-8124	(248) 685-1705	(810) 220-2297
Board of Directors:	Board of Directors:	Ampeer Editor
Jim McNeely	Jeff Hauser	Ken Myers
4733 Crows Nest Ct.	18200 Rosetta	1911 Bradshaw Ct.
Brighton, MI 48116	Eastpointe, MI 48021	Walled Lake, MI 48390
(810) 220-2297	(810) 772-2499	(248) 669-8124
Mailed Ampeer subscriptions are $10 a year US & Canada and $17 a year world wide. FREE on-line!
The Next Meeting: Date: Thursday, August 5 Place: Rushton Rd. Flying Field, South Lyon, MI Time: 7:00 P.M. or ASAP

What's In This Issue?
Kv for Robbie 600	Ampeer On-line Print Problem?	Ampeer Printing Problem and More on Bob Livin’s Custom Cavalier	A Little More on Electric Control Line Flying	Note From Sweden
Some New Stuff from Modelair-Tech	A UK Couple	Giant Scale Taube	E-FLY-IOWA	The June EFO Meeting
Royal Gull	The Dave Strathman Memorial Fly-In	Let’s do the "Wingo Tuck"	New Sanyo 3000CR Batteries!	Another Electric Fly In
Mid-Am '99 Report	Map To Rushton Road Flying Field	Upcoming Events	Send Ken email

Kv for Robbie 600
From: Barrie Hill email: mailto:baz@idx.com.au

Here is an exchange of posts via email. They demonstrate two things. First, don’t believe everything you read - GIGO! Second, having email and using the internet can be very useful. KM
My post back to a question from Barrie:
Hi Barrie,
If you would like me to figure out the Kv and Rm, please gather the following data. RPM, motor terminal volts and amps for two different running points. The gearbox can be on, but I need to know the exact ratio.
Measuring Point 1 - the smallest prop you have that you can fit to get a tach reading.
Measuring Point 2 - the largest prop that you can fit that won't draw more than 27 - 30 amps for the few seconds of the test.
Sincerely, Ken
(Mentioned to offer this service to others. KM)
Barrie’s response:
Thanks for the offer Ken.
After I wrote to you, I realised that Robbie would be on the net, so asked them for the Kv for their #4472 motor. They confirm that it is 2500 (as my actual results indicated).
Seems that there is a typo in the E-Calc database as it has the Kv for the same motor as 3196, indicating you as the source. Also the info in the motor list in Ampeers shows the same higher Kv for the #4472 Robbie.
Rgds BH
Thanks Barrie. Readers, please update your databases with this information. Remember, take everything you read and hear with a grain of salt. I make every effort to see that information on the EFO website and the Ampeer is correct, but I can’t test everything and I DO make mistakes! Mrs. Myers’s son is not perfect. Sorry Mom! Oops, guess she already knows that! KM

(Some of you have noted a HP/Acrobat anomaly. The "P" of the Ampeer is missing when printed. Here is a "fix" from Ted Capron, which I had in the April ‘96 issue of the Ampeer.
After down loading this file I was able to print March out on my Hewlett Packard 560C by making the following modifications to the HP 560C Windows 95 driver: Bring up the HP 560C driver (under Windows 95), under properties, click on details- spool settings and check box to print direct to the printer. When printing the Adobe Reader, do not have page size change- checked!

Ken,
Just got your Ampeer in the www. Funny thing the logo "AMPEER" prints out without the "P." (See previous article. Km)
On Bob Livin's Custom Cavalier (see June issue), it was kitted as a single and as a twin. The fact that there was no one earth who could keep two ignition engines running at the same time seemed to make little difference. The same for ailerons, the plans show ailerons and no rudder control. Again never mind that at the time no one had an actuator that would drive an aileron.
The plans seem to be WW II period because there is a notation on the plans to the effect that the plane should not be flown in coastal defense zones. Doug Ward should not feel bad I believed as he did that it was a single and that the ailerons were Bob's add on. I never heard of the twin version until I saw the plans Bob used..
Thanks again for a great newsletter. Plenny Bates

Ken,
My friend and I have been extremely busy getting ready for a Control Line contest in the Oregon area. The good news is that Grant Hiestand has completed his Boeing 314 China Clipper, electric powered of course. 88" span, 924 square inches, 7 lbs total weight with four AP-29L's for power with 21 cells (direct drive). His 28 cell pack did not charge correctly so all we had was a 21 cell pack. Even with 21 cells he was flying at 1/2 power. I will have more time and pictures once I get back from Oregon. For now here is a primer.

Hi Ken,
I am going to Detroit next week and I hope I will find some time to contact you and go flying. (Unfortunately, we didn’t get a chance to go flying, but we met and had dinner and a very nice chat. Km)
I met a fellow named Don Martini (from somewhere near Detroit) at Opel in Germany recently. We are both working with measuring and testing cars and other vehicles. He used build and fly models years ago and now he wants to get started again. Of course I am talking him into electrics. It would be great if we could go flying.
Best regards,
Stefan Tholin - Vara, Sweden

PS I hope you don't mind that I send you a picture of my foamboard delta. It has 8x800AR and a Permax 450. Exciting airplane!!!!!! (Mind! Not at all! Here it is folks! Km)

I (Tom Hunt) released "Skimpy" in the spring and now the ....Elipstik........ a geared 280 or direct 400 slow/park flier flying wing!! 43" span, 460 sq.in. of planform area. It is all stick of course....
For more information visit: www.modelairtech.com/stik.html
The prototype which debued at the Hope, NJ fly-in two weeks ago has flown on both the TA GD-280 on 7-350aac cells (about 10 minute flights.... 11 ounces) and lately on my M-50 (9.6v) "400" motor on direct drive with 6-500ar cells ( 4-5 minute flights... 14 ounces).
Very stable platform for a flying wing, and very unusual looking in the air.
P-151 $10.00 (plan only)
K-111 $27.00 (kit, includes clearfilm covering material)
KCOMBO-011 (kit, GD-280) $53.95
If you would rather have the "400" set-up, I don't have a code for that on the website yet, but it would include the kit, motor, prop and prop adapter for $42.95
A gentleman in Maryland bought the plans from me at Hope, NJ had his built and flying by the following Wednesday!!!
Tom Hunt - Modelair-Tech

Ken,
I have attached pictures of 2 of my planes. Both fly on 7 cells.
One is a Tucano, 50 inch span powered by a 'wet mag' 600 size motor and a Master Airscrew 3:1 box with the standard 12x8 prop. The model was from a PSS plan and easily converts to electric.
The second is a Hawker Sea Fury 48 inch span powered by a standard Speed 600 can motor and 8x4 slim prop. This model comes from a kit made by Balsacraft. The kit is excellent and comes with NC cut parts which fit together very easily. They also do a Bristol Blenheim (twin), a Spitfire, a Hurricane and also a Grumman Bearcat. (Available through Tower Hobbies and local shops in the USA. Km)

June brought out the planes and fliers. Although the evening started cloudy, with a threat of wind and rain, many of the EFO members attended the flying meeting, held at the Rushton Road field.
Richard Utkan, EFO VP, demonstrated an air powered free flight, as well as a Zagi. The Zagi was hand launched like a boomerang, and it proceeded to fly very well from that type of launch. Nice flying Richard!
Master builder and flier, Jim Young joined the EFO and showed off a couple of his new planes, including this great Mr. Mulligan.
Don Skiff brought out his yet unfinished Milan Flier. The downspout fuselage was lightened considerably!
Corky Boyd showed off one of the most popular planes of the 1999 flying season. This Wingo can really fly a LONG, LONG time! (It actually won the S400 all up/last down on Sunday, at the Mid-Am '99. KM)
I’d like to thank Jeff Hauser for the photos. Nice job Jeff!
The photo of me is just because I’m usually on the other side of the camera. Sure wish the wife wouldn’t use such hot water when she washes my shirts!

Dear Ken,
My wife and I are here visiting our son, Mark, in Woodland Hills, CA. We were able to stop and visit Bob at Astro Flight, something I have longed to do for about 9 years. I have about 10 of his models. While waiting to see him, I had the opportunity to read the March issue of your Ampeer publication - it’s excellent. Bob gave me the March issue.
I have also enclosed a photo of my scale Piaggio P136L2 (the Royal Gull). It was at the last KRC event. Your welcome to publish it, if you wish. I would love to see more modelers model it. It’s one beautiful plane!
Some specifications: 66” span, 2-AF15 direct drives, 20 RC-2000 cells, 8x6 3-bladed props, weight: 8 lbs.
Jack Parry, 7 Spyglass Dr., Aiken, SC 29803-5942, phone: 803-643-7509, is offering plans at a reasonable price. He had not established a price the last time I spoke with him, but he’s a fair person.
All of us back east are very disappointed about the KRC being cancelled for 1999. We are looking for an alternative meet.
Sincerely, Rich Flinchbaugh

Azarr sent out a nice note about the E-fly held in May. According to the note: there were 35 entrants from 5 states. It was a bit overcast and did get a little wet for a while, but things went very well.
For those of us attending, thanks for a great day. I wish I could have stayed for the great chicken bar-b-que, but went to Columbus for dinner with my daughter.
This is a great meet, and the only one I know of with a hobby shop right at the field. Put it on your schedule for next year!

Many list groups on the Web have had "threads" describing a strange phenomenon in the flight qualities of the Kavan "Wingo" park flyer (generally available though Hobby Lobby). It seems that, with increasing speed, the model enters a shallow dive that increases to near vertical, even when large amounts of "up" elevator are applied. Since the elevator horn is on the top of the tail and UP command "pulls" on the pushrod, you can forget any idea that "pushrod" bending might be causing the problem.
Assuming, at this point, that the servo is powerful enough to pull the model out of the dive, what could be causing the model to "pitch over" and plummet to the earth? Gerhard’s Wingo exhibited this phenomenon quite nicely on the Memorial Day weekend!
For those of you who are not familiar with the model, it is configured with a "high" wing (pylon mounted) and a low tail mounted on a balsa/ply boom attached to a foam "pod". The model is a pusher, direct drive "400" powered model on 8 cells. The boom is rather flexible along it’s length, and is also rather flexible where it leaves the foam pod. These two factors create a variable incidence tail!!!
When faced with increasing speed (even in a shallow dive) the natural reaction is to pull UP on the elevator. Elevator deflection, acting like a flap on the horizontal tail forces the tail to fly "down," which, in turn, bends the boom down, causing the whole horizontal tail to actually increase it’s angle of attack, (relative to the wing) thus "positive" lift, which lifts the tail, and pushes the nose further down. Adding more UP elevator only makes the problem worse. (This is a clear example of control reversal. GMM)
If altitude is available and the throttle has already been retarded to OFF, or idle, the only course of action left is to push full DOWN elevator to exit the dive and slow the model. Once out of the dive, the model slows quickly, restoring "normal" control to the model.
When this happens to you, the best thing to do is "whatever is necessary" (including working the controls backwards) to recover to upright, level flight as soon as possible, followed by flying the model slowly to a landing.
A "fix" is easy to accomplish. To stiffen the boom, Epoxy a spruce spine on the top or bottom of the boom. Make it from l/8x3/8 or l/8x1/2 and run it from a place 3 to 4” inside the foam pod, right out to the tail leading edge. The height of the spine may be gradually tapered to "0" at the LE of the tail. Make sure the longer dimension of the spine is "vertical". The added weight should be negligible, effecting the CG slightly. The CG can be easily readjusted by moving the battery pack further forward.
Gerhard has made this "fix" and I await a chance to flight test it again....

The 3000s are finally available in the US! They are bigger, heavier and have more capacity.

Ken,
I would like to take this opportunity to invite you and anyone who is suffering from KRC withdrawal syndrome, to come to the Chilliwack 99 Aug. E fly. It is traditionally held on the last weekend of Aug. at our site in Chilliwack B.C.
Last year Jim Bourke was in attendance, along with people from as far away as Nova Scotia, and Toronto. Many come up from Washingto and Oregon. We have our own private float pond, so float flying is included in the weekend. There is camping at the field, and space for lots of motorhomes, campers, trailers, etc.
Our runway is grass (short ) and about 410 ft. long. We are situated on the Fraser River, right up against the beautiful Coast mountains. Those who come for the first time usually are awed by the beauty of the surroundings.( pics at ezone D Weatherly's column) Keep up the good work on the Ampeer. I enjoy it each and every month.

Just a short note on my favorite models: The Cloud Dancer 40 has fallen out of first place! I converted a Kyosho Agwagon ARF (article in S&EM either next issue, or the one after, per Wil Byers; photos by Dennis Weatherly, the pro) using an Aveox 1406/4Y with planetary box and 21 cells, with a 13x8 prop.
This conversion seemed heavy - 8 1/4 pounds ready to fly - but slows down to a walk and lands like a Kadet! Flies wonderfully, does consecutive rolls at 1/3 throttle. I have another one "in the box" in the garage, I like it so much. I really have lowered the Cloud Dancer 40 in my "models ratings" - this Agwagon is Perfect! And Warner Lowe, another e-modeler who lives about 11 miles from me, has done one with an Aveox and only 15 cells...lighter, of course, and of course if I can roll mine at 1/3 throttle, his certainly has adequate power. Watch for the coming article with super pix by Dennis.